Jack Sharry: Hello, everyone. Welcome. Good to have you on board for this week’s edition of WealthTech on Deck. I’ve been around the industry for a long time, as you know, for decades, in fact, and for much of that time, I’ve been involved with the MMI, the Money Management Institute. I’ve been a board member, committee chair, white paper writer, as well as speaker and moderator at more MMI conferences than I can count. One of my favorite roles in general and with MMI specifically, is to be a mentor to the next generation of leaders in our industry. I’ve probably mentored a dozen or so folks over the years in MMI’s gateway to leadership programs. I find it personally rewarding. And judging by the fact that I keep in touch with many of the friends I’ve made as a mentor, they’ve enjoyed it as well. I recently even invited… was invited by the MMI to moderate a discussion on leadership. The objective was to create a dialogue with the audience about leading and being led. My co-moderators were Nick Alfier from Bank of New York Mellon and Danielle Learned from Horizon Investments who I had not known before this and thrilled to have met and spent some time with. Both were involved in the inaugural MMI gateway to leadership program. So basically, I was the old guy talking about from way back when, and they were the young folks on the rise. So all as it should be, I suppose. I was so impressed with the quality of those moderators, and those people, co moderators, I asked Danielle if she would come to our podcast and talk about her experience as someone who’s on the rise, part of our, the future stars of our industry as I look at it. So Danielle is the chief of staff and head of sales execution at Horizon Investments. I’ll let her tell you about the firm and what she does in a moment. In her spare time, she’s also getting an MBA from the University of North Carolina, Kenan Flagler Business School. And today we’re going to talk with Danielle about some of the lessons she has learned and shared as she develops her significant skills and capabilities around leadership and execution. So, Danielle, my new friend, my good friend, thanks for joining us. Good to have you on WealthTech on Deck.

Danielle Learned: Thank you. So excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Jack Sharry: Yeah, my pleasure. Excited. So Danielle, let’s start with how it all this started. Please tell us about your background and career journey. How did you get into this business? And how has your career evolved to today?

Danielle Learned: Yeah, happy to. Jack, you know, it’s funny, and I think I shared this with you when we first met. My undergraduate plan was to be an elementary education teacher. So I absolutely stumbled into financial services. Halfway through my undergraduate, I decided that I wanted to have a broader impact. And as I took a step back and really thought about what were the reasons why I wanted to be a teacher is that I really enjoyed having an impact on people’s lives. And I grew up a pretty tough childhood in terms of financial stability. And that was always something that was super important to me to be a steward of that for the next generation. And also for my own personal financial well being and I made the shift halfway through to become a management major, and then decided that the business world was something I was super fascinated and interested in. And quite honestly, I didn’t have that exposure growing up. So it was something that I really wanted to lean into. I put myself through undergraduate school. And I think that also taught me a lot about grit and tenacity that we’ll talk about a little bit later in the context of leadership. But, I got into the business by accident, I applied for a financial advisor’s assistant role at Oppenheimer and Company, which was close to my undergraduate university. Had no idea what financial advisors really did, and grew to love that business because I realized at the end of the day, it was all about people, and helping people make smart financial decisions and, you know, achieve the goals and objectives that were super important to them. From there, after a couple of years, I realized that there was this whole other side of the industry that I didn’t really get to learn a whole lot about. Most of the advisors that I supported at the time were big insurance producers. And right down the road in Connecticut and Shelton was Prudential, and that was a brand name that I knew was seen and recognized and had a great reputation. And that really became kind of the starting point for my career in this industry. Came up through the sales side, I always joke that I’m a recovering annuity salesperson, as many of us were, and I was always looking for something more. You know, Jack, the one thing that I was always looking for, I had a lot of change in my childhood. And I was always craving change and looking for the next exciting thing and trying to be ahead of the puck. At that point, interest rates were not a really conducive environment for the insurance companies. So after a few years at big firms like MetLife and Prudential, I realized that the wealth management side of the business, the financial services, advisory side was kind of where the puck was going. And ironically enough through industry contacts, I sat down next to a man who ran a strategist firm and said, hey, you know, LPL Financial is looking for someone to help run one of their platforms, is that something you’d be interested in? That one interaction completely changed the trajectory of my career. So today now I’m at Horizon Investments as chief of staff and head of sales execution. And like we were joking before we started this podcast, I get to do this every day. And that is something that I feel very grateful for and passionate about. But my career really has evolved because of the connections that I’ve made and keeping this intellectual curiosity at the core of everything that I do.

Jack Sharry: As I’m sure we’ll talk some more about, and a fair amount of grit. That’s my observation as we’ve gotten to know each other. So we’ll talk some more about that I am sure.

Danielle Learned: Absolutely.

Jack Sharry: So let’s talk about Horizon. It’s a wonderful story. I know the founder, Robbie Cannon, as do you and you can tell that story in a moment. And I also had the chance, I’ve known John Drahzal for a long time, just in the industry. He’s now the current CEO. And actually, we have Robbie coming up on a podcast soon enough. And we will have John as well. So, but talk about Horizon and, and about the firm. And then we’ll talk about what you do there and how you do it.

Danielle Learned: Absolutely. So, Horizon started well over 20 years ago, as just a small RIA in Columbia, South Carolina, and many people listening to that may not know where Columbia, South Carolina really is. But you know that my favorite thing about it, and we tell our advisors this all the time is we were built by advisors for advisors. So we, we position ourself and say that we are a modern day asset manager supported by really robust technology. But what we’re really known for, Jack, is our goals based investing philosophy. And we truly believe that is fundamentally different than a lot of the product providers out there. And I think the other thing that really sets us apart is we position ourselves as a solutions provider. I think many firms out there are pushing product, and we’ve always led with solutions and relationships. Products become commodities. And our main objective and our mission at the end of the day, is to empower the advisor to deliver the best possible financial outcomes for their end clients. We’re about 8 billion in assets under management with a mix of different products that all fit into that goals based construct, mutual funds, SMAs, a variety of different things that we’ll get into later in this podcast that I’m super excited about bringing to the market later this year.

Jack Sharry: Great. And you may want to comment about who brought you in. I know Robbie Cannon is working closely with MMI on a new program for emerging managers of which will Horizon was one of the original. Robbie was active on the board before he moved on from his board service. But why don’t you talk a little bit about Robbie, how it got started, how you two connected and how you wound up at Horizon?

Danielle Learned: Yeah, absolutely. So, Jack, like we talked about at the beginning of the podcast, the way in which you, Nick and I, and you and I got connected was through MMI’s leadership pathway program. And being part of the initial year of that program that was really designed to create a community and forum for the next generation of advisory leadership. You know, there was about 15 or so of us and many of us still keep in touch today. But it was really to create that kind of consortium of idea sharing and best practices and, and leadership pointers and things about the industry to really get perspective from each other, but also from industry veterans, like yourself, and really make sure that we’re staying in tune with the needs of our different businesses. But also from a competitive landscape standpoint, kind of understanding what is going on in the marketplace. As part of that program, we were fortunate enough to be able to have dinner with the MMI Board of Governors as part of that introduction into the program. And the very next night, I happened to see an open seat at one of the tables towards the front of the room and plopped myself down, introduced myself, and that was Robbie Cannon. And that was over eight years ago. Robbie became a dear friend and mentor of mine. And we got together all the time locally in Charlotte. And when I was looking to do something different, I got together with him and was kind of sharing with him what I was looking for. And what I realized at that point is everything that I had done had been with really big firms, and it provided me tremendous opportunities and tremendous growth experience. But what I was missing was that ability to work for a smaller firm that was cutting edge and had the ability to be really nimble and really gritty, we… we’ll keep coming back to that term, but had a really awesome entrepreneurial startup feel that was always pushing the envelope. And we had dinner and he said, “Well, what have you come work for Horizon? I’m not quite sure what it is we’ll have you do but if you trust me, are you willing to take a leap?” And that was almost six years ago and was the single best decision that I’ve ever made for my career. And we keep in touch by way of different MMI programs. He’s still on the board here at Horizon and is a great advisor for us as well.

Jack Sharry: Yeah, Robbie’s great, and we’re gonna we’re gonna have him on to talk about some of the work he’s doing presently. He’s really broken new ground for MMI, which is all about what this podcast is about. And clearly you’ve benefited from his mentorship.

Danielle Learned: Absolutely.

Jack Sharry: So let’s talk a little bit about Horizon and what you do there. So, and maybe a little bit about your evolution because I know you evolved to where you’re… what you’re doing now, but maybe talk about your own growth trajectory over the past six or so years. Why don’t you talk about that as well as what you’re doing today?

Danielle Learned: Yeah, absolutely. So when I joined Horizon, as I had just mentioned, I kind of took a leap of faith and a chance to try something completely different that I am definitely a creature of routine and habit when it comes to work, but what I saw at Horizon that I didn’t see in any of the other opportunities that I was evaluating at this time, was this really competitive spirit, this entrepreneurial spirit, and it felt a lot like a tech startup, I was so attracted to that, because it felt so different and disruptive to what else was out there in the asset management industry at that time. And Horizon was just starting to build out, it was almost like a mini startup within the firm, this really robust consulting offering for financial advisors that had deemed themselves as portfolio manager. And that part of the business was growing so quickly that we were at this really pivotal intersection of scale and startup. So I came in and helped build, along with the rest of the team and my partner, Austin Fitch, who work… we still work very closely together, kind of finding a way to take the really unique value proposition that we were able to offer to a handful of our advisors and RIAs and build that out to broader capabilities and incorporating really robust financial planning technology that we’ve all built in house. So it’s been a couple of years doing that. We were fortunate enough to go through a capital process about two and a half years ago, with Altamont Capital Partners, they’re a private equity firm. And the main reason, Jack, we did that is one of the things that I think we all would agree is really hard in this marketplace, is bringing new products to market and getting it through the gatekeepers and on the platforms and manufacturing new product takes a lot of time and a lot of resources, and you have to have the track record. So we always said that one of the things that we believe sets us apart is being a distribution led organization. We have great distribution, but we always wanted to expand our product lineup, having that capital is going to allow us to do that. That is one thing we’re very, very excited about. And as part of that transition, I stepped into a broader leadership role, was fortunate enough to be the first female added to the firm’s executive committee. And that’s when I moved into a chief of staff role. I will say those at the firm kind of call it “chief of stuff,” because if anyone listening to this podcast has had chief of staff experience, you know exactly what that means. It’s a little bit of herding cats, your hands are involved in everything. But, Jack, the last two and a half years, I have learned more about the business, about our business than, you know, the 10 plus years that I’ve been in this space. So it’s really exciting. We are growing very, very quickly. We’re very fortunate about that. And then most recently, I’ve taken on an expanded role as head of sales execution, which is leading our internal sales teams and marketing teams. And I couldn’t be more excited about the opportunity that lies ahead of us and being able to come back to my sales roots, because I truly believe that’s, that’s the best part of the business.

Jack Sharry: So it’s interesting, having been around a little while, I’ve observed many, and we’ve had some of those folks who were chiefs of staff at various firms over time. And now are senior leaders at various firms, one name comes quickly to mind is a former colleague of mine, Tom Buckingham, who is now the chief revenue officer at Nassau Financial Group, and I knew him as an intern. And then he rose to chief of staff status, he’s run lots of different parts of that organization. And now is chief revenue officer, so he looks to me like he’s being groomed for something. Tom has been on the show. And my observation on the chief of staff or as you call it, I think rightly so, “chief of stuff.” Basically, the chief of staff has to figure a lot of stuff out that no one else either wants to figure out or has figured out or whatever.

Danielle Learned: You’re right about that.

Jack Sharry: So why don’t you talk about that. And then the other piece to that, no surprise that there… you’ve been given sort of two different roles, that I would argue are probably the same role, really. So why don’t you just talk about that about just, my comment is more about just it’s so clear to me just getting to know you that this is where you’re headed, but talk about what you’re doing about it. In other words, how you’re getting stuff done. How do you work with your colleagues, you were up here now, in many ways, you collaborate with these folks, and you don’t necessarily… they don’t necessarily report you, but you still have to get stuff done. Talk about that. How do you make that happen? What have you learned along the way? I’m sure that, I know we’ve talked a little bit about this offline. But talk a little bit about that experience of just your own growth. In terms of figuring that out.

Danielle Learned: Yeah, absolutely. And this is gonna nod to one of the things that I’ll leave everyone with today is leadership is learned. It’s not taught. And it took me a while to realize that I have been fortunate to work under fabulous leaders over the course of my career. I’ve also had really really terrible bosses. Jack, you and I talked about what it’s like to work for someone like that. Both of those situations teach you a lot about yourself as a leader in terms of what type of leader you want to be, what type of leader you really try to steer away from. I think that the single most important thing, I’ll talk about the leadership aspect first and how that kind of translates into, you know what I do day to day, the advice that I give everyone that is a new leader or that does have to influence and lead a team that doesn’t directly report to them is shut up and listen. The people around you actually have some really great ideas. And, and I think for those of us who are earlier in our careers, you know, that shift from being an individual contributor, and knowing everything, and being the go to person, that feels really, really good. But what gets you here is not what gets you there. And I know you talk about this in some of your blog posts, it’s this art of listening. That is not something that comes without a fair amount of work, it is a muscle that you absolutely have to flex. I shared this when we did the session at MMI. As someone who has stepped into taking over new teams that had previous leadership, I always start with three questions. And those three questions are really, really designed to empower the people on the team to hear that they have a voice. That first question is: What is one thing that we should start doing that we’re not doing today? The second is: What what is one thing we should stop doing that maybe doesn’t make the business better, that is really inefficient? And most importantly: If you were in my shoes, what decisions would you make? What changes would you make? I have found that asking those three questions, now worded differently, depending on the situation, just really can neutralize a situation where if there is a transition in leadership, you’re really creating this boundary of trust, and respect, and open and honest communication. I also think empathy is a really big piece of that. And I would say that the single most important part about being a chief of staff, because you’re absolutely right, you are leading without directly having management over or with people is building those relationships. And those relationships have to be built on a foundation of trust and empathy. And as a leadership team, we read Trillion Dollar Coach recently about Bill Campbell. And one of the things that we took away from that is to care about people, you really have to care about people. You have to make investments and learn about them and understand what makes them tick. And that’s more than just giving them feedback about their work product. It’s really getting to know what motivates them, why they’re here. And I will tell you some of the best ideas around our sales team and how we execute and the tools that we use have come by asking people those questions and giving them permission to share their opinion and come up with new ideas. I think what we all realize the further we get into our careers is there’s a lot of really smart people around us. And we should be leveraging them and listening to them. So that’s from a leadership perspective, Jack, those are the things that really have been the most transformative. And I will tell you, those come with a lot of trial and error, a lot of trial and error.

Jack Sharry: Meaning you just didn’t do it automatically right the first time, is that what you’re saying?

Danielle Learned: No, definitely not. No, no.

Jack Sharry: I spent 40 years, much of the time doing the wrong things. I’m doing a few more things right these days. But I’m always catching myself going, “Oh, I shouldn’t have done that.” So I appreciate you sharing that. And I love that at your tender age in the industry, you have caught on to that, I think that bodes well for the future. So, speaking of the future, where is our industry going? Where are you going? Where’s Horizon going? What’s your… take out your crystal ball, if you would? What’s… where are we headed? And what are you going to do about it?

Danielle Learned: Oh, man, there’s, I think there’s so much opportunity ahead. And, you know, I was listening to some of the recent folks that you had on the podcast. And it’s very interesting to hear some of the bigger themes about the future. And I would argue some of those themes are actually right now, they’re not the future. And for those firms that are thinking that that’s the future, you know, they might be left behind. I think the one thing that we’re constantly talking about is how do we operate best in the environment that we’re in, knowing that the one constant is we’re going to continue to see change, we’re going to continue to see advancements in technology. But I think what is core to the ethos of our firm and core to our value is that the future of advice is still going to be extremely personal. And we believe and that ties back to our mission that it is our responsibility and obligation to empower financial advisors and equip them with all of the tools that they need to balance being an entrepreneur and being a financial advisor. We talk to our advisors about this all the time. Most of them got into this business because they enjoyed managing client relationships, and they enjoyed being part of the market. They most certainly did not get into this business to be the head of HR, to build their own tech stack, to do other legal and compliance operating responsibilities, to build operating agreements. So we are constantly trying to push the envelope to help advisors strike that balance of being a successful small business owner and being a really great financial advisor that delivers the best possible outcomes to their clients. So I think what we continue to talk about as a firm and you’re hearing it across the industry, we call it the great unbundling. I would argue that that is the present that is today, that is not the future. You know, we’ve come full circle and individual equities are in vogue, again, people are looking for and demanding more transparency and customization from their financial advisors. And then financial advisors are demanding more of that from us. So one of the things that we are most excited about that we are actively working on bringing to market is products that give more transparency and give more customization, flexibility, and personalization. We are in the process of launching a custom separately managed account program called Horizon custom portfolios, which is all centered around keeping the advisor and the client in control of that decision making. So kind of thinking about that as being a much more flexible, personalized version of a direct index coupled with active management. That is something that from a chief of staff and head of sales execution perspective, we are keenly focused on. But it also gives us the ability to bring products to market to serve non qualified assets. And most importantly, help our advisors swim upstream, and attract and retain high net worth clients. Because many of them, I think, would agree that managing individual equity portfolios or trying to do all the tax optimization themselves, that’s a full time job or a full time hire that hits the P&L pretty hard.

Jack Sharry: So to my audience, I indicated, as we got started, that you were going to have an opportunity to listen into the future of our industry. And I think Danielle, you’ve done a brilliant job of, of expressing that. You are… you make us proud, those of us who’ve worked hard over a long period of time to see the next generation be way ahead of wherever I was back then. And a few others that I know that are in high places. So thank you for what you’re doing, this is great. I love to see it. And applaud your effort and grit. And, let’s talk about that grit thing, by the way. We didn’t… I was about to wrap up. But I want to… you majored in grit, my guess is that was your major in college, right?

Danielle Learned: That’s definitely… if they gave degrees in that, I would take it. Yeah, it’s something that I reflect on quite often. And what I realize is that is something that I’m attracted to, in terms of looking for new talent for our firm. It’s definitely the type of people I gravitate towards in the workplace and in my personal life. I would define grit as this unrelenting intellectual curiosity and drive to always do something more, something better. That has proven to be the single source of why I do what I do in my personal and professional life is, is constantly challenging the status quo and asking questions, have we thought about doing it this way? Why have we not thought about doing it this way? Is this the most efficient way to do things and also not being afraid to fail, we talk as a leadership team a lot about the type of culture we’re trying to create at this firm. And I think, the pace of change in this industry, you have to be willing to take risks and fail, within reason. But without those failures, you don’t learn a lot of really great opportunities to try new things. And sometimes the best ideas aren’t the ones that were planned and thought about strategically. They’re the ones that come from learning about trying something new and realizing it didn’t work, or intentionally trying to break a process. That, I think, if you really take a step back, and I look at all the things that I put in that grit bucket, while it is pretty big, it’s that intellectual curiosity and willingness to fail and being okay with failing and not being afraid to ask questions, and I think it’s, you know, especially at a smaller firm, we benefit from that entrepreneurial mindset. And we encourage all of our employees, any tenure, any level of experience, to ask questions, because just because you’ve done something one way for a long time, doesn’t mean it’s the best way to do it. And doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do on a go forward basis.

Jack Sharry: So talk about that, because I… you exude grit, which I love. Just tell us about that. What, how do you leverage that, use that, embrace that, operate from that? That’s great. We share that. As you know, I’ve written a book on authentic and ethical persuasion, and one of the pillars as I refer to it toward the, at the end of the book, and one of the key elements is perseverance, which is another word for grit, and resilience. In fact, I was hired initially in this business by a firm that looked for that, that’s how they hired people. And I’ve really done that pretty much since in terms of who I choose to work with, as I’ve hired folks over time is, do they have that grit factor, that perseverance, that resilience to overcome, to pick themselves up and dust themselves off and you clearly have that in spades. So our time goes nigh, so great conversation, I had high expectations, once again, I’m dazzled and amazed and appreciative, Danielle, for sharing what you’ve shared. So as we look to wrap up, what are key takeaways you’d like to share with our audience?

Danielle Learned: Yeah, well, thank you for having me. The conversation has been wonderful. I have admired the prior speakers that you’ve brought on. And I’m grateful to be part of it and truly enjoy our friendship and mentorship. And I encourage those who don’t know Jack really well to get to do so because he has a lot to offer. As I think about what we’ve talked about today, and kind of the few key things that I share from a leadership perspective, as I mentioned earlier, leadership is, is learned, it’s not taught, people are always watching, and people are always listening. And I have to remind myself of that on a daily basis, the way that you speak to others, the way that you treat others is the way that your team thinks that they should treat and speak to others. So always being mindful of that. But leading is listening. You know, Jack, we talk a lot about the art of listening. And I encourage everyone, you know, when you’re going into a meeting where you know you’re super passionate about whatever idea or topic it is or you know you have a tendency to want to dominate that conversation. That is me, I know that about myself, I will write down on the top of that paper shut up and listen. And if I feel the urge to say something, I will try to pose it in the form of a question to get the group to interact. And the last is to care about people, you really have to care about people, that empathy and emotional intelligence is, I always tell my team, I try to believe in them more than they believe in themselves and see the things in themselves that they can’t. And if I have done those three things for my team, then I feel good about myself as a leader. And hopefully they feel the same.

Jack Sharry: You are the bomb. Love it. Great job. Really appreciate this conversation. So we got one last question for you, Danielle.

Danielle Learned: All right.

Jack Sharry: Always my favorite. What do you do outside of work that you’re excited or passionate about that people might find interesting or surprising?

Danielle Learned: That’s a good question. Well, in between the homework that comes along with an executive MBA program, this is probably not shocking in the context of grit, and I firmly believe one of the best ways to keep a goal accountable is to put it out in the open, to write it down, to share it. So my big ugly goal this year is to try to complete the Chicago Marathon in October, which I’m very excited about. I have attempted to try to train twice. And I think the older I get, the less my body loves running. But with a little bit more physical therapy and a plan, I’m confident that we’ll get that done. But I’ve got that on my calendar for October of this year. So that will… kicking off training in a short couple of weeks here. So very excited about that. And I’ve heard it’s an incredible experience. And I love that city, so I’m very excited.

Jack Sharry: Good for you. That’s wonderful. The thing I love about that question, because we ask it on each episode. Every time I hear the answer, I’m always like, wow, that’s cool. That’s interesting. I’ve never thought of that one. Anyway, that’s great. So Danielle, thank you. This has been a great conversation. For our audience, if you’ve enjoyed our podcast, please rate, review, subscribe, and share what we are doing here at WealthTech on Deck. We’re available wherever you get your podcasts. Again, Danielle, thank you. It’s been a real pleasure.

Danielle Learned: Thank you so much, Jack. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks for having me.